All accurate, however you missed one impossibility. A one state solution. It might seem ridiculous to bring up, but there are those (usually ourside of the region) who still support it. The problem is that the Palestinian's would only accept that solution with a "right of return" and full citizenship for all Palestinians. That would make quick demographic end to a Jewish controlled state and the Jews know this. So, that idea is a non-starter as well.
I have to agree that the violence in Palestine (I refuse to call it Israel as that name has only been pseudo-legally applied since 1948) will not end until one side has been completely ejected from the land. and honestly, the violence will likely continue until one of the two governments involved manages to complete the genocide of their opponents that both have publicly announced is their end goal. I know if my family had held title to land for hundreds of years until it was somehow "given" by the UN to moneyed-class invaders and I was ejected by military on their behalf that I'd be likely to find a way to retaliate.
You do know it was Judea before it was Palestine? You do know how it became known as Palestine? I'm sure you know the history of the region since the mid 1800s.
The violence will end when Hamas is destroyed and Gazans decide to abandon their hatred.
It is well known that history is documented “by the winners”. Watch the documentary Tantura, produced and directed by an Israeli Jew. Read books like The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, by Israeli historian Ilan Pape.
Why do people like yourself ask elementary level questions. If I moved into your 4-bed house uninvited, would you fight back or just watch me make myself at home? Then if you were offered the bathroom as your part of your home, would you accept that “2-state” solution? Atleast do some homework before hurling ridiculous questions as your argument.
I think that there will only be peace when either Israel or Palestine has destroyed the other.
This war has been going on since the Roman Empire, if not before. The Jews have always been under the command of their god to eradicate all of the people who didn't worship him. If there was any tenuous peace, it was destroyed by the Balfour Declaration and the creation of a religious Jewish state in Arab-controlled territory.
The best thing that America and the rest of the world can do is stay out of it and let the people of the desert solve their own problems. Whatever we do, we should not bring any of them over here as refugees, either Israelis or Palestinians.
In my opinion, any state that cannot defend itself without outside help doesn't deserve to be a state.
I agree with this objective assessment. Both peoples have a claim on this land. Although it’s not clearly a civil war, it should be treated as such by the international community. When both sides are ready to talk, I can’t see why a single state- a representative republic cannot be established. Lebanon had such a constitution and lived in peace albeit for a short time with all three Abrahamic religions in the land. It can be done.
Couldn't agree more. Tedious listening to the factions blaming each other. My money is on Islam taking the whole. It has energy, a mission and rising demographic and economic power. We have to deal with what it is, not what we wish it were.
I’ve had the same heretical opinion since I could spell Middle East and considering they’ve been fighting amongst themselves for millenia: build a fence around the outside border, everyone back off, and let them have at it. As long as their issues stay there, the rest of the world can move along. One step over the line and they’re fair game to whoever.
Yes, I already have my place reserved in hell for thinking such.
My take is the same. 40 years of watching this mess go around in circles, ever since I was a little kid. Personal emotional divestment is my only solution. Political divestment is the smart thing for everyone outside.
Neither party can be cajoled or coerced into living in peace with the other by any outside force, short of a successful third-party takeover of the territory and imposition of external order on both groups, which would involve extreme violence and wouldn't make that third-party look any better than the other two.
Neither will be convinced to leave peacefully, and even if they could be, nobody else would have them. Even if anyone would, it's unclear how that would work logistically (here unclear meaning "probably impossible").
What does that leave? One group will inevitably subjugate, exterminate, or expel the other. Currently the Israelis have the advantage there, largely thanks to outside help, and if that help is withdrawn the Palestinians are likely to get the upper hand, also thanks to outside help.
If outside help is withdrawn from only one side, the other side sweeps. If, in order to prevent that sweep, outside help is not withdrawn from either side, that help must constantly escalate, creating greater violence which is now spreading beyond Israel/Palestine's borders. If withdrawn from both sides, they will continue the cycle of violence indefinitely until one side wins. Everything that can be done by anyone on the outside makes it worse in one way or other.
It's a fine mess, completely impossible to resolve in a way that satisfies everyone and infinitely lucrative to arms dealers and their investors, probably just as they intended.
But that said I'm beyond done being a party to it, and if someone wants to send my kid off to die making it worse (and arms dealers richer) they'll have to get through me first.
Israel has internal existential social divides that will destroy it.
Haredi (Orthodox Jews) refuse military service, have 6-10 babies per couple, men study Torah & don’t work, women raise kids and make $, all live on govt handouts in poverty.
Ashkenazi liberal Jews are the backbone of economy, live European lives, work in tech, wealthy, core of IDF, Zionist founders, elites but low birth rate and losing ground.
Misrahi Jews are conservative, from Arab countries, militant. Sephardic Jews similar. from Spain.
Settler Jews are genocidal, former Brooklynites, religious fanatics, currently most important part of Netanyahu coalition.
Mass exodus coming when Israel is no longer the “safe space” for Jews. Just last week 30k Israelis at Ben Guruon Airport to fly out. No way the Gaza and Northern envelopes will see Jews returning to live on border w Arab enemies. Also, economy dicey. Also world opinion catastrophic.
The social, demographic, cultural fracture lines in Israel are TEMPORARILY glued together by Gaza War. They will break soon in a massive earthquake and Israel will collapse in fire and blood.
Wrong. Jews lived for centuries in the Muslim umma in peace as part of the Islamic golden age. Not in Europe, because Christian lords made them tax collectors, money lenders and hostile elites so the were periodically mass murdered by enraged peasants.
When Israel was founded, the Mossad bombed Jews in Muslim countries in false flag attacks to terrorize them into moving to Israel to boost population. There is a huge hidden history of Zionism, a perverse, satanic ideology.
They may be guilty of all of the above, it doesn’t nullify their claim to their native land. I’m sorry but every culture has an element guilty of atrocities, it doesn’t strip the people of their claim to the land
When they were chased out of their land by the Romans, and then again by the Arabs, many wound up in Europe as well as Asia and Africa. They preserved their Jewish identity for millennia in the hope of one day returning home.
So what you are saying is they are Arabs too. If they were indigenous to that land, a land that has always been surrounded by Arabs, then those driven out must also be Arabs, right? Or is it possible that white Europeans were indigenous to a land that was surrounded by land indigenous to Arabs?
Your article was pretty fair to both sides and your conclusions are reasonable.
But I generally avoid articles on this subject because of the comments which are almost always anti-Semitic (or anti-Israeli) and pro-Palestinian. That seems to be the case here as well.
As a theologian, I'll say only that it will not end well for either side. The Bible is pretty explicit as to what will happen. But even if one were to dismiss the Bible I think common sense says there is no peaceful solution.
I listened to Finklestein, he’s very biased and selective about his facts. The Palestinian people are used as pawns in the effort to thwart any attempt at a settlement that acknowledges the legitimacy of a Jewish nation.
I’m sorry, but just because someone is a historian doesn’t mean they’re not biased. They have theories and opinions. This is a very complex issue, and whenever someone starts using words like ‘Zionist’ and ‘genocide’, they’ve lost the plot.
I understand the difference. Do you? I didn’t reply to the original comment with the intent to insult. I know enough to hold a courteous discussion. Have a nice day.
You said I had "lost the plot" because I referred to Zionists. That is pretty discourteous to say the least.
All educated people about this topic use that term to make a distinction between Jews and Zionists. It's an important distinction. You can't know the subject very well if you don't know that.
Remember, “Palestine” isn’t a single cause. Some Palestinians are secular nationalists, while others want sharia law. Israel should work together with the Fatah party against Hamas.
The answer is in the bible. The conflict continues until Jesus Christ returns. When? Don't know but most likely in 2028. Israel will go thru the now lit refining fire. 2/3 in land of Israel that includes Israel, Jordan, south Lebanon, sw Syria, NE Sinai which is all land of Israel. The 1/3 that survive will all accept Christ and he will return. Since Jesus returns to Jerusalem Israel means Israel has survived but is wounded badly in battle and Jesus saves Israel. America at this time will already exist no more.
That's the answer. Sadly replacement theology Christians are not in the few that make the kingdom.
kick em in the wallet, that's the only thing the moneyed class notices.
since that farcical judgement in Citizens United gave corporate entities the rights of citizens, businesses like intel and micro$oft certainly count as members of the moneyed class.
All accurate, however you missed one impossibility. A one state solution. It might seem ridiculous to bring up, but there are those (usually ourside of the region) who still support it. The problem is that the Palestinian's would only accept that solution with a "right of return" and full citizenship for all Palestinians. That would make quick demographic end to a Jewish controlled state and the Jews know this. So, that idea is a non-starter as well.
I have to agree that the violence in Palestine (I refuse to call it Israel as that name has only been pseudo-legally applied since 1948) will not end until one side has been completely ejected from the land. and honestly, the violence will likely continue until one of the two governments involved manages to complete the genocide of their opponents that both have publicly announced is their end goal. I know if my family had held title to land for hundreds of years until it was somehow "given" by the UN to moneyed-class invaders and I was ejected by military on their behalf that I'd be likely to find a way to retaliate.
You do know it was Judea before it was Palestine? You do know how it became known as Palestine? I'm sure you know the history of the region since the mid 1800s.
The violence will end when Hamas is destroyed and Gazans decide to abandon their hatred.
Yeah, in mid 1800s colonists made a landing in the Palestine using some land claims from 2000 years ago and began displacing native population.
No, they actuality purchased land from the locals with the spproval of the Ottoman Empire. History is not hard, especially when it is well documemted.
It is well known that history is documented “by the winners”. Watch the documentary Tantura, produced and directed by an Israeli Jew. Read books like The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, by Israeli historian Ilan Pape.
In 1948, why did the Arabs declare war on the newly created state of Israel? Why did the Arabs refuse a two state solution offered by the UN?
Why do people like yourself ask elementary level questions. If I moved into your 4-bed house uninvited, would you fight back or just watch me make myself at home? Then if you were offered the bathroom as your part of your home, would you accept that “2-state” solution? Atleast do some homework before hurling ridiculous questions as your argument.
I think that there will only be peace when either Israel or Palestine has destroyed the other.
This war has been going on since the Roman Empire, if not before. The Jews have always been under the command of their god to eradicate all of the people who didn't worship him. If there was any tenuous peace, it was destroyed by the Balfour Declaration and the creation of a religious Jewish state in Arab-controlled territory.
The best thing that America and the rest of the world can do is stay out of it and let the people of the desert solve their own problems. Whatever we do, we should not bring any of them over here as refugees, either Israelis or Palestinians.
In my opinion, any state that cannot defend itself without outside help doesn't deserve to be a state.
Not going to get into commentary except I think you are right in your post. Makes me sad.
I agree with this objective assessment. Both peoples have a claim on this land. Although it’s not clearly a civil war, it should be treated as such by the international community. When both sides are ready to talk, I can’t see why a single state- a representative republic cannot be established. Lebanon had such a constitution and lived in peace albeit for a short time with all three Abrahamic religions in the land. It can be done.
Couldn't agree more. Tedious listening to the factions blaming each other. My money is on Islam taking the whole. It has energy, a mission and rising demographic and economic power. We have to deal with what it is, not what we wish it were.
I’ve had the same heretical opinion since I could spell Middle East and considering they’ve been fighting amongst themselves for millenia: build a fence around the outside border, everyone back off, and let them have at it. As long as their issues stay there, the rest of the world can move along. One step over the line and they’re fair game to whoever.
Yes, I already have my place reserved in hell for thinking such.
My take is the same. 40 years of watching this mess go around in circles, ever since I was a little kid. Personal emotional divestment is my only solution. Political divestment is the smart thing for everyone outside.
Neither party can be cajoled or coerced into living in peace with the other by any outside force, short of a successful third-party takeover of the territory and imposition of external order on both groups, which would involve extreme violence and wouldn't make that third-party look any better than the other two.
Neither will be convinced to leave peacefully, and even if they could be, nobody else would have them. Even if anyone would, it's unclear how that would work logistically (here unclear meaning "probably impossible").
What does that leave? One group will inevitably subjugate, exterminate, or expel the other. Currently the Israelis have the advantage there, largely thanks to outside help, and if that help is withdrawn the Palestinians are likely to get the upper hand, also thanks to outside help.
If outside help is withdrawn from only one side, the other side sweeps. If, in order to prevent that sweep, outside help is not withdrawn from either side, that help must constantly escalate, creating greater violence which is now spreading beyond Israel/Palestine's borders. If withdrawn from both sides, they will continue the cycle of violence indefinitely until one side wins. Everything that can be done by anyone on the outside makes it worse in one way or other.
It's a fine mess, completely impossible to resolve in a way that satisfies everyone and infinitely lucrative to arms dealers and their investors, probably just as they intended.
But that said I'm beyond done being a party to it, and if someone wants to send my kid off to die making it worse (and arms dealers richer) they'll have to get through me first.
Israel has internal existential social divides that will destroy it.
Haredi (Orthodox Jews) refuse military service, have 6-10 babies per couple, men study Torah & don’t work, women raise kids and make $, all live on govt handouts in poverty.
Ashkenazi liberal Jews are the backbone of economy, live European lives, work in tech, wealthy, core of IDF, Zionist founders, elites but low birth rate and losing ground.
Misrahi Jews are conservative, from Arab countries, militant. Sephardic Jews similar. from Spain.
Settler Jews are genocidal, former Brooklynites, religious fanatics, currently most important part of Netanyahu coalition.
Russian Jews conservative, growing stronger, secular.
Mass exodus coming when Israel is no longer the “safe space” for Jews. Just last week 30k Israelis at Ben Guruon Airport to fly out. No way the Gaza and Northern envelopes will see Jews returning to live on border w Arab enemies. Also, economy dicey. Also world opinion catastrophic.
The social, demographic, cultural fracture lines in Israel are TEMPORARILY glued together by Gaza War. They will break soon in a massive earthquake and Israel will collapse in fire and blood.
Sad part is there really is no other ‘safe space’ for the Jews to exist. They know it.
Wrong. Jews lived for centuries in the Muslim umma in peace as part of the Islamic golden age. Not in Europe, because Christian lords made them tax collectors, money lenders and hostile elites so the were periodically mass murdered by enraged peasants.
When Israel was founded, the Mossad bombed Jews in Muslim countries in false flag attacks to terrorize them into moving to Israel to boost population. There is a huge hidden history of Zionism, a perverse, satanic ideology.
They may be guilty of all of the above, it doesn’t nullify their claim to their native land. I’m sorry but every culture has an element guilty of atrocities, it doesn’t strip the people of their claim to the land
I can understand Arab Jews making this claim. But how do European Jews have claim to land in the Middle East?
When they were chased out of their land by the Romans, and then again by the Arabs, many wound up in Europe as well as Asia and Africa. They preserved their Jewish identity for millennia in the hope of one day returning home.
So what you are saying is they are Arabs too. If they were indigenous to that land, a land that has always been surrounded by Arabs, then those driven out must also be Arabs, right? Or is it possible that white Europeans were indigenous to a land that was surrounded by land indigenous to Arabs?
Your article was pretty fair to both sides and your conclusions are reasonable.
But I generally avoid articles on this subject because of the comments which are almost always anti-Semitic (or anti-Israeli) and pro-Palestinian. That seems to be the case here as well.
As a theologian, I'll say only that it will not end well for either side. The Bible is pretty explicit as to what will happen. But even if one were to dismiss the Bible I think common sense says there is no peaceful solution.
I hear what you are saying but you fail to identify the injustice of the situation right from the inception.
Secondly, the Palestinians have conceded on many occasions. Have a look at what Norman Finkelstein and Jeremy Hammond have to say about that.
I listened to Finklestein, he’s very biased and selective about his facts. The Palestinian people are used as pawns in the effort to thwart any attempt at a settlement that acknowledges the legitimacy of a Jewish nation.
Utter rubbish. Norman Finkelstein is completely honest and he is a historian and political scientist.
The Zionists drove the Palestinians out of their homes and land and have been murdering them for over 100 years.
I’m sorry, but just because someone is a historian doesn’t mean they’re not biased. They have theories and opinions. This is a very complex issue, and whenever someone starts using words like ‘Zionist’ and ‘genocide’, they’ve lost the plot.
The thing is, reciting the verifiable facts is not bias.
If you don't know or understand the difference between Zionists, Israelis and Jews, then you don't know very much and need to educate yourself.
I understand the difference. Do you? I didn’t reply to the original comment with the intent to insult. I know enough to hold a courteous discussion. Have a nice day.
You said I had "lost the plot" because I referred to Zionists. That is pretty discourteous to say the least.
All educated people about this topic use that term to make a distinction between Jews and Zionists. It's an important distinction. You can't know the subject very well if you don't know that.
Remember, “Palestine” isn’t a single cause. Some Palestinians are secular nationalists, while others want sharia law. Israel should work together with the Fatah party against Hamas.
I agree with some folks who point out Israel’s demographics are not in their favor. In the long term, they’re through.
The answer is in the bible. The conflict continues until Jesus Christ returns. When? Don't know but most likely in 2028. Israel will go thru the now lit refining fire. 2/3 in land of Israel that includes Israel, Jordan, south Lebanon, sw Syria, NE Sinai which is all land of Israel. The 1/3 that survive will all accept Christ and he will return. Since Jesus returns to Jerusalem Israel means Israel has survived but is wounded badly in battle and Jesus saves Israel. America at this time will already exist no more.
That's the answer. Sadly replacement theology Christians are not in the few that make the kingdom.
kick em in the wallet, that's the only thing the moneyed class notices.
since that farcical judgement in Citizens United gave corporate entities the rights of citizens, businesses like intel and micro$oft certainly count as members of the moneyed class.